The Crossfit Community is full of self proclaimed athletes. I have a bit of a problem with this. I have grown up playing sports and trained with some true athletes. They come in all shapes and sizes but have a couple things in common. They easily adapt to new skills and learn movements very well. You can toss them into any sport (anything with a ball (im gonna catch hell over this one)) show them the fundamentals and watch them flourish. Deon sanders and Bo Jackson are great examples of an athlete.
Crossfit provides fitness, and a really fucking high level of it. I believe, however, that it does not produce athleticism. I have worked with many people and can distinguish the athlete from the non athlete pretty easily in the first 15 minutes i see them move. They have all kinds of core to extremity violations and are overall spastic. These things can be overcome but as soon as you throw in a new movement the learning process starts all over.
So who are the best athletes?
I say Soccer or Rugby players. Why not a decathlete?
There is no variance in what they do. Every competition consists of 10 events, the same 10 events everytime! How athletic do you have to be? You have to be fit sure but not athletic.
The same can be said for Crossfit.
Wrestlers never know what their opponent is gonna do. Same can be said about anything with a ball. Even badmitton and ping pong are more athletic in my opinion. The guys that couldn’t play sports do decathlons, triathlons, marathons…
An athlete has a steeper learning curve meaning they pick up the same movement quicker and more efficiently than their non athletic counterpart. This is not to take anything away from the non athlete. There are quite a few people in the crossfit community that i would not consider athletic but are much more fit than I.
Take a step back next time you are in the gym, at practice or at dance class and see if you can identify what i am talking about.
| Where: Crossfit Tulsa When: May 23, 2009 (the day after my birthday!!) |
so you’re saying athleticism is genetic and cannot be improved? or can people improve at picking up things faster?
Thanks for hitting on this Dutch. This is a sticky topic. Is it reasonable to say that the skill components of fitness, agility, accuracy, coordination, flexability, and balance are just second nature to an athlete? Then for the rest of us power speed endurance stamina and strength could come naturally or be built up through training? Then for guys like Bo Jackson it all comes together? I’m running late this morning and want to get more into this one later.
Dan,
I am not sure if that is true. I am not claiming to know where it comes from but i know there is a distinct difference. I want to say it is learned but i have seen people that have absolutely no background in sport be able to snatch perfectly in their first attempt. So, Dan, i can’t answer that.
I think that for people that are less athletic they just have to focus more and practice better in order to pick up the same skill. It is certainly possible for the unathletic to pick up the necessary skills it just takes them a little longer.
Mark,
I think you are on the right track. I don’t think the power, speed… come naturally to anyone they are just less skill dependent. They are certainly not maximized without the skill component.
Wow Dutch!!!! Well I most definitely agree that CrossFit seems to make believe they are athletes but damn I have done Triathlons and Marathons and no you don’t have to be an athlete to do those things but damn I have done 7 of them and because I was competing for a pro card I trained and finished in my opinion like an athlete.
I think the real confusion in terms of CrossFit comes from the fact that athletes use CrossFit for off-season training so at anytime I could have a soccer mom and a rugby player doing the same wod at the same time and because of scaling or over training that soccer mom may appear to have beaten the so-called athlete which makes the soccer mom believe “I must be an athlete” but in reality she is fit not athletic.
In thinking about this post I bet we could choose wods that could show whether you are athletic or fit.
I personally have always been athletic however once school was over I didn’t carry those sports into adulthood, so for me CrossFit is my sport and I am its athlete.
Syn!
I am not taking anything away from you and the beasts that regularly do tri’s and marathons but by my definition above neither those or crossfit are sports so we can’t be athletes. Fit hell yes! I have seen you train and know you are athletic.
I dont think athletic means fit at all. I know a couple guys that are not fit but you give them any sport and they will pick it up quickly. Their fitness will hold them back but the skills are what make them athletic not their capacity.
Imagine a guy that can squat 700lbs but couldn’t hit a baseball tossed to him underhand if his life depended on it.
I think the soccer mom thing may have a little truth to it.
I think I am starting to get your point. Coach does start most of his lectures with “what is fitness” not “what is athletic”.
Damn the line between fit and athletic seems to be thin.
One thing that opened my eyes that things like CrossFit could be considered a sport is this show I use to watch called “Timeless” is a show about different sports around the world that most may not consider a sport. Have you seen this show?
P.S. I got the CrossFit is my sport thing from OPT (great guy) and only recently did I adopt that theory. Because my mind has a problem excepting CrossFit as a sports because I come from a sports background and actually find it hard to consider weightlifting a sport.
Syn,
Whatever you have to tell your mind to keep kicking ass…. haha!
I have not seen that show but can only imagine the things they come up with.
I am going to agree and disagree…
There is most assuredly a difference between fit and athletic. We all know someone that does nothing but drink beer and eat pizza but could step into a pick up basketball game and shake it up. I’ve noticed that regardless of what condition they’re in, new clients with a background in team sports tend to pick up the CrossFit “skills” much quicker than the newbies who have spent there twenties running marathons, or concentration curls. Those peoples “ceilings” seem to be much higher as well.
When I lived abroad I had the “Rugby vs. American Football” debate over countless pints of Guiness. Its my contention that the elite linebackers in the NFL are the best athletes in the world (think Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis). These guys have to be fast enough to cover a slot receiver running deep routes. Big enough, strong enough, and explosive enough to fill a gap vs. a 300+ O Lineman. Quick and agile enough to tackle RB’s in the open field. On top of all that they can make plays with there hands, and they have to react to what the offense is doing (which, IMO, makes them superior to there offensive counterparts).
I generally view rugby players as less powerful, because of the constant movement required of the sport seems to put them more on endurance side of things . Also, I can’t imagine any soccer player standing chance if pitted against 300 pound manchild down in the trenchs.
Toughts?
I like what Wes points out- the more variation the sport the more athleticism it requires and hence the more fitness-(much like the wrestler but he only deals with people his own size) I dont think that the soccer player is a great example -to narrow a skill set. Neither does ping pong resonate with me-I’ve played ping pong pretty well after more than one tequila (or so it seemed) It’s just hand eye coordination. I vote for the gymnast. On par with him is an expert in martial arts then I think some variants of the two like freestyle break dancers and parkour athletes. These sports all require the 10 physical attributes of fitness but require a huge array of skill sets (no ball required) that the average person can’t even approach. What do you think?
I think one interesting distinction between Crossfit and other sports like football, basketball, what have you is that there is almost no reactive element in something like Crossfit. You have to move your own body or an external object in some specified manner, but everything that happens in a Crossfit workout is done BY the Crossfitter. There is no catching an errant pass, tackling a dodging running back, etc. I think that the ability to react to another human opponent’s actions with speed, strength, agility, etc. is a pretty interesting distinction. Just a thought.
I’d definitely say I’m fairly fit but fairly unathletic.
Wes and mark,
Fortunately for yall the issue is not which athlete is more fit. The issue is what dustiguishes between an athlete and a fitness enthusiast. We will leave that to another post. I guess that should come next. Keep an eye out for it soon.
Tom,
I think you are right on with the reactive part of an athlete.
Interesting post and comments. Dutch I think I get what you say about athletes being able to pick up movements and adapt quicker than non-athletes. There are definitely people that are quicker than others – be it that they are more talented and gifted – and hence are more “athletic”.
That being said, I think it also depends on the definition you use for athlete. Wikipedia tells me “An athlete is a sportsperson in a general sense or specifically person who is respectful, a team player, and shows compassion for the game he/she is playing.” Not really saying anything about movement talent. I am not saying we should use this definition, rather suggest that “athlete” might not always be limited to ones ability to pick up movement. For instance, I was involved with a world class beach volleyball team last year. Very talented “athletes”. A LOT OF ball control which is required for the sport. Number of pull ups: zero. Talent to pick up movements such as olympic lifts/gymnastics: rather limited. Take that volleyball away they could still battle it out with a soccerball max reps keeping the ball in the air with the foot or head (and cap it at a few hundred reps or else it takes too long)… Apparently these sportswomen were very talented when it came to most ball sports. Nonetheless, they would have trouble fitting the definition of “athletic” in the sense that they can pick up movements quickly.
Totally agree with your distinction between talented movers and people for whom picking up movements comes less natural. Not sure I would call this talent athtleticism – it all depends on how you define it I guess.
Lebron James is quite the athlete. I imagine if he busted his ass on crossfit for a couple months, well, there would be scary results in what ever sport he decided to pursue.
I think athleticism and fitness are both characteristics that are learned. To say that some of the best athletes in our world are the way they are because they are born that way is incorrect. Eye hand coordination, body fluidity, and reflexes are attributes that are learned and built upon through athletics. We all know the guys that have never picked up a basketball and seem to have natural abilities, but those were picked up somewhere. Maybe not in basketball, but in something they do in their life. This could be another sport or something as simple as a child playing tag.
The fact that crossFit uses the exercises that it does, in the manner that we do them replicates athleticism more than most fitness programs.
Now am I saying that CrossFit = Athletic.
No, not really. But it sure as hell gets you closer. In the same way that soccer will make you a better basketball player. If you take a soccer player, that never played basketball I think they would seem more natural than someone that had never played either. Why, because the soccer player already has a better concept of team play, spacing of players, when to pass, how to move, etc. Probably better than a pure CrossFitter or a baseball player may be.
I’m sure there are some sports that could be a natural progression for a CrossFitter that has never done any other athletics.
CrossFit is the Sport of Fitness, right. It’s just not mainstream yet.
Dutch, based on your assessment of fit vs. athletic, what would your thoughts be on adding athletic skills into CrossFit WODs? Is it even possible without decomposing the method of CrossFit?
I would say it is…at least to some extent. Advanced kettlebell moves require the development of excellent hand-eye coordination, as well keep the intensity up. I also believe other reaction based elements and athletic skills, could be added to some (but definitely not all) CrossFit WODs (refer to Eva T.’s CF Journal article, “Perception” March 2007). I’ve actually been planning on incorporating some ideas into my WODs (think doing box jumps, while jumping up to catch a tennis ball a partner is tossing to you). While my ideas may be simplistic to start, I don’t consider myself a great athlete, but because of my increasing fitness, due to CrossFit, I know how the desire to hold my own in athletic pursuits, besides just being able to run up and down a field/court.
Thanks for the articles Dutch. They are starting some great discussions and are obviously topics that are on many people’s minds. Oh, and I haven’t congratulated you on your performance at the qualifier last weekend, so way to Break Through and win that one.
Edward,
Thank You, It was a great event and i am honored to be a part of the CF community.
I wasn’t really saying that you could develop athleticism. It is more like a trait. You can improve skills. I feel that there are tons of athletic skills in Crossfit, you just have to be athletic in order to master them. This does not mean that if you aren’t athletic you can’t master them, it will just take a little longer to get it right.
I was trying more to distinguish between and athlete and non-athlete. Developing an athlete is a whole different bag of potatoes. I am not sure if athletes are born or made like what neil was saying but i know there is a distinct difference.
Yeah, I agree there is a distinction between an athlete and non-athlete (being athletic vs. being fit), but I guess I was taking it a bit further and discussing the development of athletic ability (maybe best for a whole other post and discussion).
But I will say this, there are absolutely those individuals born with extraordinary athletic gifts (i.e. Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Babe Ruth). However, I believe there is a significant, if not majority percentage of athletes who compete on the elite/professional level, who worked their butts off to become skilled enough athletes to perform on this level. I am not arguing or stating anything about fitness capabilities.
I guess, since I would not call myself a “born athlete,” my interest has become how do I increase my athletic capabilities, just as I’ve increased my fitness capabilities? Beyond the scope of your article and not asking for you to provide an answer…just posting my thoughts.
Something interesting I have noticed in dealing with athletes is (generally speaking, this is not always true) the more natural talent an athlete has the more they think in terms of natural ability. Whereas a successful athlete with less natural talent thinks more along the terms of training.
For example, if I were to watch the video of Josh Everett’s Isabel with a naturally talented elite athlete and another successful yet mediocre talented athlete I would get two different responses. The naturally gifted guy would respond “wow, that guy is strong” and leave it at that, giving all the credit to his naturally given strength. The other athlete however would respond “wow, that guy is strong. What is he doing to get that strong.” I think many of the “born athletes” aren’t as concerned with the “how” as everyone else is.
I’m not saying that the natural athlete doesn’t work as hard, its just interesting to see the different way they think.
Well said, and i agree. I see it all the time in my brazillian juijitsu class. There are guys that come in and after a year are giving much more advanced students a run for their money. Some people just have better body awareness, coordination, and pick up new movements very fast. Their learning curve is alot less steep than less athletic people. Fair enough, that just means that some of us have to work harder.
Anton
Edward, Mike, Anton,
I have first hand experience with the guys you are talking about. It is unfortunate that real bad dudes i used to play with didn’t really have the drive that i did. I was always a little slower, or less talented than them. It always seemed that they just didn’t care as much as i did. It frustrated the hell out of me as a player.
I think the guys like Tiger… are few and far between. it is hard to find that kind of talent along with the drive you need to be successful.
Well put guys.
Interesting discussion here. I would agree that some people just learn physical skills better and faster. Whether it’s genetic potential for proprioceptive awareness, or just more exposure to more sports over more time, I’m not really sure. Perhaps coach has been right all along in that “regularly learning and playing new sports”…will make you better at learning and playing new sports.
Anyone seen Dhani Tackles the Globe on Travel channel? Pretty cool concept. 6’2″, 235lbs NFL linebacker travels the world and lives in a country for 1 week to learn a sport, then competes at the end of the week. So far he’s done a kind of Swiss wresting, rugby, jai alai, dragon-boat racing, Thai and Cambodian kick boxing, life guarding games(missed that so not really sure what that is) Irish hurling…fun show and the results are pretty much what you’d expect. Terrifically powerful and strong but still picks up the finesse aspects much quicker than the host coaches expect.
Dutch,
Couldn’t agree (and disagree) more with you brother. Found your site through Rob Wolf’s link…good stuff.
When I was in high school and competing in track/cc, I always hated the stigma attached with my sport. My football buddies would always egg me on saying that “running isn’t a sport”. “Ha, fuck you, come do what I do at practice and see if you can walk the next day,” I’d reply. But it was true. Most of the kids who came out for cc/track were not athletes. They did it because they were too small/weak/uncordinated for other sports. I was the anamoly. I ran b/c I was fast, strong, couldn’t sit still and I loved to compete AND win. I played all sports growing up, track was my choice. Funny, I never hung out with the “runners” neither in college nor high school, cause I felt I just couldn’t relate.
Fast forward to now. After running at the elite level for 8 years, against true “athletes”, you begin to understand the difference b/t the amateur or “very fit” runner and the professional. It’s much the same as pro ballers vs. weekend warriors on the court. When you immerse yourself in the realm of elite track and field, you know you’re surrounded by true athletes. To your point, watch the way they move, not on the track but also off…their body has been developed for nothing but speed and endurance in differing doses. Many of these people, if not all, were not just runners growing up, but excellent all around athletes that found their niche on the track. They are proficient in Oly weights, dynamic plyo drills, agility movements, etc…I challenge you to take a trip to Eugene for the USATF nationals in June and check out the athletes. I think you will agree that to be at this level, although superior fitness is the key, an underlying all around athlete is at the core of each of them.
Dude, I totally got off track….
What I wanted to say was that to attain elite fitness (as CF’ers), a great deal of athleticism is needed. In order to perform the lifts and movements properly, one has to have a great deal of cordination and bring the fire with that cordination. Now, since we practice those movements many many times, we become more proficient. It’s like saying someone who can’t catch a football is un-athletic (Justin Gatlin, former WR 100m)…not true…he’s just extremely fit and athletic in his domain, his domain isn’t catching footballs. If he were catch a football 100 times a day, I’m sure he’d build the athleticism required for the game.
I’m drifting again…my point is that, a high level of fitness (even running w/ proper technique “pose” method is very difficult) can only be achieved by being an excellent athlete, someone who knows their body well, how to control it, and how to push it harder than their competition. Decathletes are good at what they do across 10 domains. I’m sure if you threw them in a rugby game, a world class deca guy could hold his own with some practice. Would he have to adapt?? Shit yeah he would, just like the rugby player would have to figure out how to jump and throw and shit. So to say that elite level of fitness is non athletic is, in my book, is utterly un-true. Athletes that are uber fit must know their body, adapt it properly according to their games confines, and execute it at a maximum level. That sounds like athleticism to me.
Brendan,
It seems we are saying the same thing about athletes. The only thing I would challenge about your statement and I don’t even think this is a challenge. The athlete will pick up the given movement much quicker that the non athlete. Yes the non athlete can excell at it but it will take time and dedicated practice. The natural athlete will not have to work as hard to accomplish the same achievement provided their fitness level is the same.
Great discussion and I would love to get to the t and f national championship some day. Right now I am focused on making it to south africa in 2010 for the world cup!
Count me in for that trip!
Dutch and others, I’d like to throw in a few more sports that require a tremendous amount of athleticism and are NOT ball sports. Skateboarding, rock climbing (specifically bouldering), and whitewater kayaking (specifically freestyle playboating). Just youtube some videos of these activities at high levels and you can see all sorts of athletic traits in action.