Bad workout…
In: Blog
29 Apr 2009I thought for a bit about posting these workouts. I wanted to make up my own “bad” workout so nobody got the blame but these were just too unforgiving. It is also nice because they include the warm up and cool down. Let it be understood that i am completely in line with what SEALS go through for their training so it seems like a good idea to train like this. In my opinion this should be a once a month, possibly once a week challenge to test mental fortitude.
I will discuss two workouts here as they illustrate different mistakes in my opinion. Oh yea and remember this is all my opinion so if you disagree lets have a constructive discussion.
Phase I: Warm-up / Mental Preparation
50 burpee pull-ups
Phase II: Metcon, Strength
“The Pirates”
3 rounds for time (one for each Pirate killed by the SEALs):
25 Curtis P’s 115lb
Row 1,500 meters
Phase III: Warm-down / Core
Stretch
Notes: Row fast so you get to shore before the sniper rounds hit! This will suck. Recall the Curtis P – Perform a Clean from the floor, then racked lunge each side, finish with push-press. That is 1 repetition. Post your time to the forum.
Phase 1:
Great workout! O wait its just the warm up. The notes for phase one say not to do it for time but accomplish the work at an uncomfortable pace. Ok, i’ll take it. Definitely a total body warm up.
Phase II:
First of all we have got to understand what strength means. Wikipedia states: Physical strength is the ability of a person or animal to exert force on physical objects using muscles. Increasing physical strength is the goal of strength training.
115 lbs is not enough to increase physical strength. I have heard countless people say that 135 is heavy… In case you were wondering this is heavy…
Ok i think we cleared that up.
I really like the idea of a simple workout. This is a couplet and has real potential to be a good high power output workout. We might have even been able to leave the 25 Curtis P’s in there although i think these alone will push us into the 15-20 minute time domain. Add in a 1500m row which i am guessing will take me probably over 6 minutes each (i rowed a 7:15 2000m once…). What has happened to our power and intensity? Another way to save this workout would be to do 1 round for time. That would actually be a pretty damn good workout now that i think about it. None the less what happens as we make it out of the first round and into the second? Are you going to hop off the rower and skip over the bar and knock out 10-15 Curtis P’s? I think not. I see this workout taking at least 25 minutes and probably closer to 35. By the end you are just trying to finish instead of really pushing yourself. We need an effort to get fit. If you ever feel like you are pacing yourself…You aren’t getting more fit. Remember that…unless you are doing Chest to bar pullups.
Workout Number 2:
Phase I: Warm-up / Preparation
3 rounds: 10 x Kettle Bell Swing, 10 x KB Thrusters 55lb, 10 x Air Squat
Phase II: Endurance
“Peak Experience”
For time: 5 x 100 yard sprint, then:
4 Rounds:
- 10 Burpees
- 20 Pull-ups
- 30 KB swings (55lb)
- 40 Wall Ball (20lb)
- 50 Sumo-Dead-Lift-High-Pull (70lb)
Run 2 miles
Phase III: Warm-down / Core
Stretch
Notes: This should be a blast – don’t blow off the warm-up. It is not long – and is necessary to get your major muscle groups warmed up, and to prevent any strain with the sprints. Set up your equipment stations, then start the workout clock and go strong on the sprints. Clock stops at end of 2 mile run. Post your times and comments to the forum.
Phase I:
Warm up is pretty cool, i just fucking hate kettle bells.
PhaseII:
Here we have a classic example of an Any Asshole workout. It is a list of a couple common CF movements compiled with a number in front of them. Not to mention the 5×100m sprint before and the 2 mile run afterward.
A note about sprints: If you want people to actually sprint you have to prescribe a rest otherwise the above turns into 1×500m run/jog. It doesn’t matter who you are without the rest interval you can’t recover enough to keep your output at a high level to consider it sprinting. Think about that.
Ok, i’ll move on the 4 rounds of nonsense. First of all this an equipment intensive workout. You will need 3 different objects not to mention a pullup bar. Think about most CF workouts, they are simple both in construction and set up. There are exceptions but this is not good enough to be an exception (FGB anyone??).
I am ok with an escalating rep scheme but with this it gets a little out of hand. I am little biased because i am terrible at SDHP but by the end of the workout you have done 200 reps so i imagine everyone will feel the same as me. I think that will be the limiting factor…oh yea and the fact that you have to run 2 miles to finish! That is an immediate Intensity and power output killer.
A 2 mile run is great, but following a 15-20 minute workout you are just missing the point and lose the benefits of high intensity anaerobic conditioning.
Phase III:
At least they want you to “stretch”…
I want to make clear that i understand what these guys are going for but i truly believe there is a much more efficient way to go about it. I feel that they are not maximizing results and miss the point of Crossfit as a program. I am not going to mention where i go these workouts from but i am sure some of you know already.
What do ya’ll think?
| Where: Crossfit Tulsa When: May 23, 2009 (the day after my birthday!!) |
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18 Responses to Bad workout…
dave
April 29th, 2009 at 9:45 am
definitely agree with your opinions on these wods. i’m no expert, but i have come across these wods before and had similar thoughts. they seem to get a little out of control…
dave
April 29th, 2009 at 9:52 am
along the lines of thinking about wods, i came across this one:
5 rounds for time:
5 hang squat cleans, 135lb (105lb)
10 box jumps, 24″
15 knees to elbows
i would be curious to know what you (and other people that read this blog) think of this wod. i think if i was going to do it i would change it a little to 3 rounds with 155lb cleans and 32″ box jumps. do both versions have their places? i think i would be able to go harder for 3 rounds than i would for 5, even with the heavier weights…thoughts?
dutch
April 29th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Dave,
That is a tough question. Especially with that work out. Here is what i think:
Both work outs are quality. The problem with yours is its not the one that was prescribed and more than likely will give a different response. Which workout you do depends on what you are looking to get out of the workout. So to complicate your thought process do both and if you really want to expand your experience try 7 rounds with 75 or 95 lbs and 18″ box. You see where i am going with this? It totally depends on what you want to get out of the workout.
I mentioned above that i could make the above workouts “good” but i didn’t want to modify them. You can make any workout meet your needs. You just have to know what your needs are…
Edward Stedman
April 29th, 2009 at 11:08 am
Dutch,
I know the site where you pulled those workouts, and I have used their WODs several times in my own workouts…but like you mentioned, I modified them to my needs. I agree SEALs have much different needs and goals than you and I do. When I first found the site with these WODs I tried them out as rx’ed, but constantly took 30+ minutes (often even longer) to complete them. After going through a several of them over a couple of weeks I was starting to dread all my workouts. At that time, I watched Dave Castro’s videos (in the CF Journal) about programming. That helped to straighten me out with thinking that constantly doing WODs like these were necessary to become a better CrossFitter. I still visit this particular site from time to time, but only to maybe get some ideas and then modify it.
I was also wondering if you have any thoughts/opinions about the WODs at Mountain Athlete? I want to make it clear that I have complete respect for Rob Hess and his program, it is just that I don’t fully grasp it. I know the workouts on his site are typically (if not always) significantly longer than CF WODs. It seems very CrossFit-esq. I know a lot of affiliates link to the Mountain Athlete site. Anyway, his programming seems very, very, very heavy to me.
Ryan P
April 29th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Dutch,
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the Mid-Atlantic Qualifier WOD which was 3 rounds of 10 deadlifts (275#), 50 double unders.
I’ll start off by saying, I thought the programming, event logistics and judging was terrific at the qualifiers.
Here are my thoughts:
The entire week at no point did any athlete lift more than 95# overhead. Additionally, I don’t find 275# deadlifts to be heavy. And I mean heavy enough to punish the weaker athletes who excelled at all the met-cons. Maybe 315 would have been a good weight?
Also, I’m in the middle with double unders. While I agree they are a skill you must develop and they require a high level of fitness to complete 150 of them. I don’t think double unders are a good indicator of the most fit. I suppose thats why there are 4 workouts and not just one, but I believe there are some very fit people who just don’t have them.
dave
April 29th, 2009 at 11:35 am
dutch,
that totally makes sense about the different responses the workouts would elicit. it would be interesting to see which of those versions crush me the most!
dutch
April 29th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Edward,
To me Mountain athlete means over training and quickly. Stay away from that volume regularly. If i were you and really wanted to do those workouts i would cut the volume in half if not by a third. They miss the point and will injure you if you try to keep up. Keep it short and simple. results will follow.
Ryan,
First of all let me start with a apology. I didn’t have anything to do with the mid atlantic WODS but im sorry it was so heavily biased towards the little guys. I am big guy at heart and feel the need to go heavy.
It is unfortunate that people took last years standards and made them stick for this year. I heard Coach say that last year was last year and this year is going to be completely different, which i take to mean the little fast guys (speal) will have the advantage.
It is really hard to come up with a competition to test varied if not random fitness. I imagine the test is in the eye of the beholder… or at least the guy with all the power so it is his interpretation instead of an absolute measure.
It turns out that it was just tough luck that your strengths didn’t come up. That happens and all you can do is be more ready for next year. I would caution about preparing with this years games or regionals in mind though. FInd your weaknesses and attack them. Thats the only thing you can do to hope you are ready.
The double unders may have been a little sketchy but crossfit is about skills as much as capacity and double unders are just a skill. This brings up the question: Does being fit make you and athlete??
My dad would say no and i might go into depth with that later but essentially because you are fit doesn’t make you athletic, it makes you fit. Diego Maradona was a hell of an athlete but if you look at him late in his career he was not as fit but still a huge contributor to his club and national team. I was talking to Pat Barber last night about possible events and we were joking that if there is anything with coordination like catching and throwing some people are screwed. Trust me on this, i have seen some people throw and catch that i would consider fit but not athletic.
I think i rambled a bit and drifted off topic… Did i answer your question Ryan?
Basically i think you are right but its hard to tell if there would have been a different outcome.
Mark Lee CrossFit Cape Cod
April 29th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I tried those WODS in the early days and tried hard to follow them-I thought I was just lazy because I couldn’t keep up with the decimating cycles that would often only have rest days something like once a week. I dont know if it’s still like that but doing things day in and day out like 5 round FGB,Murph,Deck of Death, Running with Angie etc really gave me a big appreciation for the .com WODs. I now program for my affiliate and things are definitely gravitating toward strength bias style. Of course we do Murph 2xper year-you have to! An occasional chipper when it feels right can be “fun” and if a big group shows up I know the crew agrees.
This raises the question for me -what about a program like crossfit endurance as they recommend it? Has any body tried CrossFit football? I havent done either but I’m definitely curious if adding 3 running sessions per week to a full wod schedule makes you feel burned out. The other side of the coin CF Football looks amazing but I doubt from what I know of myself that I could keep up with those guys-is anyone supposed to do this in season? I guess I should just test them out on myself but wanted to hear thoughts from you.
I know its slightly off topic but I would love to hear about a post elaborating on skills versus fitness-or athletes versus athletic, that is one of my favorite debates.
Good Topic Dutch!
dutch
April 29th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Mark,
CF endurance is specifically designed to supplement the Main site. I have not tried it but i have heard it is a pretty heavy load but the endurance crowd tends to enjoy the extended work loads.
CF football is legit. If you scale it right it is for everyone. Their built in strength component is also legit.
Athlete vs athletic could be a spicy topic. I’ll tinker with it next week.
Thanks for the comments Mark. How did the C&J vs Thruster experiment go?
Amie
April 29th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Dutch wrote, “None the less what happens as we make it out of the first round and into the second? Are you going to hop off the rower and skip over the bar and knock out 10-15 Curtis P’s? ” – Would I hop off the rower and skip over to the bar – um, YES!! (I’m just kidding…)
Last summer, I did one of these WODs every Wednesday – I even gave Wednesdays a special name for them. I would try to get someone, anyone, to do them with me, but no one ever would. I didn’t get it at the time because I saw these WODs as a challenge to finish them, and whatever came up on Wednesdays, that’s what I did. Some of them were TOUGH and would take me 35+ minutes to do. I realize now, they aren’t the intent of CrossFit, and I should have scaled them for more power output because several of them absolutely broke me. I found it was similar to a post you had a while back, where I had to take 2-3 days off afterwards just to recover, and I wasn’t gaining as much as I thought I was…live and learn, right??
Brett_CFNorthQld
April 30th, 2009 at 2:10 am
Dutch could you please give an example of your idea of a good longer WOD?
If we are training to be fit across broad time domains surely some WODs need to be 35 mins plus.
The best example I can come up with is a 10k run or similar Row but would you just suggest the chippers for longer WODs?
Thanks, and I am really enjoying your blog – I hope your seminar travels to Australia at some stage.
Dutch
April 30th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Brett,
Greatings to you down under!! I am glad to hear you are enjoying the blog.
I would say that there is little value in going that long. The only advantage i have seen is the fact that you get mentally tougher from doing stuff in that range. You don’t get fitter.
The crazy thing about anaerobic exercise is that it is very efficient at getting you fit for aerobic exercise. If your sport is Crossfit, there is no place for 35 minute workouts. If you compete in a different sport you will need to program for that sport specifically. For example Marathon runners have to run long distances periodically so their body can handle the punishment of running long distances. A soccer player can’t become a better soccer player without touching the ball a couple times a week.
Make sense?
Great question!
Mark Lee CrossFit Cape Cod
April 30th, 2009 at 8:53 am
The C&J vs Thrusters is still a work in progress-I have to do a back to back comparison so far things have been done too far apart and with different weights. Those comparisons are helpful but not conclusive.
Jenna
April 30th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Dutch,
So glad you posted this. I was actually just going to email you and ask a couple of questions about this topic. Actually, I still might…but please, focus on your qualifier this weekend, and you can get back to me next week!!!
Jenna
Mark Lee CrossFit Cape Cod
May 1st, 2009 at 6:23 am
We are all rooting for you this weekend Dutch!
jeri
May 1st, 2009 at 11:34 am
cheers from portland this weekend dutch. bring it home.
john
May 2nd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Dutch -
Sorry man, but I’ve gotta go against you on this one…
“To me Mountain athlete means over training and quickly”.
I would have to disagree. And just to put this out there, the best strength coaches in the country (guys like Mike Burgener and Steve Gough) do not believe in over training, they only believe in under recovery. If you read closely, Rob Shaul prescribes 3 days a week in the gym for his athletes, with 2 or 3 days spent in the mountains doing their sport, and at least 1 day of full rest. That doesn’t sound too ridiculous to me.
I think you miss the point of Mountain Athlete entirely. They are not crossfitters, and they don’t compete in games. These athletes regularly spend anywhere from 8 – 72 hours in the mountains, and in some cases, their lives can depend on their fitness. They have a greater understanding of what they are training for than CrossFitters do. Don’t get me wrong, I love CrossFit, and I am a CrossFit trainer, but CrossFit has a different agenda than the athletes at Rob Shaul’s Gym do. I also understand the point of keeping workouts short and simple, but with all due respect, to downplay Rob Shaul’s programming when you don’t have much experience in or understanding of backcountry/alpine sports is a bit arrogant. Comparing CrossFit to Mountain Athlete is like comparing apples to oranges.
When it comes down to it, if your sport is CrossFit, then you don’t need these long wods. But at our CrossFit, most of the athletes are skiers, climbers, snowmobilers, mountain bikers, etc… and while they will get benefits out of the frans and cindys, I will hit the 30-40 minute Mtn Athlete-type workouts once a week, if not more, because our athletes require it. There are many CrossFit gyms that would agree with us. Check out the philosophies from CrossFit Jax and CrossFit 324.
CrossFit is great, but it is by no means the be all and end all of hybrid training. There are some great minds out there that are doing different things, and as crossfitters, we should respect that and learn from it.
Anton Emery
May 8th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Cool, i enjoyed reading that and your analysis.
Depending on the person doing it Workout I Phase I might be a bit to much for a warmup. And the legs might be fatigued to effectively execute Phase II.
I agree, phase II is just to long to maintain a high power output. And its probably not going to increase strength that at 25 rep range, that is more endurance.
Workout II Phase I
Are the KB thrusters 55lbs an arm, or total. Might be a bit heavy for a warm up, at least for most folks.
I agree, Phase II is just to much. Its like someone picked a bunch of movements they thought would be hard, strung them together, and added some running on either end. No thought as to power output, the length of the workout, etc. Anyone can put together a bunch of movements that hurt and make it a hard workout. However it takes thought and planning to put together something effective.
Great blog, i am glad i found it.